Question:

I have a 7-1/2 year old daughter who is in 2nd-grade. My wife and I exert certain amount of discipline on the use of her school and leisure time. And naturally my daughter doesn't like her parents' constant reminders and nagging. She has slowly been "fighting" back with words and expression. My and wife and I want to be fair and reasonable, and want to keep the boundary clear i.e. who is the parent and who is to obey. These skirmishes happens a few times a day, like a game of chess -- we push, she pushes back, etc.

My question: If I use discipline (discipline with force aka "rod" in the Bible), then I find I don't challenge her to think what is right for her, and it makes me behave like a dictator. But if I use logic, kind, gentle words and even in all firmness, she's able to take advantage of this softer approach, and push her limit to disobey if possible -- we then go into endless round of reasoning, "why must I do this", "why can't I do that", etc.

Have you experience the difficulty of such a balance? What has worked for you? I believe the right balance lies somewhere in between the 2 approaches, but I would be interested to hear your comments. Thanks!

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Answer:

I have two daughters, Anne who is 9-1/2 and in grade 5, and Rachel who is 6-1/2 and in grade 2. Both of them test well into the "Spirited" range in Mary Kurcinka's scale, but my grade-2 makes her elder sister look calm and passive. I believe that the discipline we use for these two gifted but challenging children is Scriptural.

It isn't clear from scripture whether the many references to the Rod refer to striking a child. I believe that it refers rather to the uses a real shepherd actually has for his rod: guiding the sheep with a poke or a push; measuring them up against a clear standard; barring the door of the sheepfold to keep them from straying; and above all protecting them by beating off the wolves and bears who would ravage the flock. But there are Christians who believe adamantly that the Rod passages do mandate spanking, and we've had some bitter argument on this board as a result. So, we've established the guideline of restricting discussion of spanking to the pro/con debate board. There *are* other Christians there who will discuss the Scriptural grounding from a Christian perspective. Here is the URL: http://boards.parentsplace.com/messages/get/ppproconspanking60.html

I haven't found it necessary to use any punishment as a disciplinary tool, let alone corporal punishment. I recognise that, at the bottom line, I do hold pretty much all the cards in this relationship; so I rarely feel that I am engaged in a struggle for control. My *child* is often engaged in a struggle for control. But her struggle is to control herself and her environment, and find the balance between the two. That is the essence of maturity, and her struggle is to become mature. I want her to win the struggle for control, so I see myself as being on her side -- as being her coach, if you will, in the "sport" of life.

See, the biggest struggle a parent has, is not to get "hooked" by your child's experimentation with ways of expressing herself. I don't mean that you tolerate direct rudeness: it would be a poor coach -- to push my analogy -- who didn't correct a gymnast's bad foot placement. But a coach doesn't become angry when an athlete struggles to learn a new skill. A parent doesn't have to become angry as his child struggles to learn negotiation and self-discipline, either. You just correct the skill, patiently and repeatedly, until the child learns. And you respect yourself enough to give yourself a break when you've done enough for the day.

The "breaks" you give yourself come from allowing natural and logical consequences to occur. If dear Rachel is using sulking to get her way, I'll tell her -- in a "coaching" voice, not an angry, blaming voice -- that sulking is unpleasant and I won't help her with whatever we're working on together, until she stops. If she uses a contemptuous tone of voice, I'll tell her that contempt is not acceptable, and that people won't want to be with her if she treats them with contempt. And then, if the sulking and contempt don't let up, the cookis we were going to bake together don't get baked: which is sad, but I point out to her that she has the power to master herself and make things turn out differently tomorrow.

And then there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, and a storm of emotion. But the emotion is hers to deal with: I give her encouragement to look forward to the next challenge, and the opportunity *she* has to exercise control over *herself* and win the challenge tomorrow. The secret is to be standing beside her, recognising her immense will and passion as strengths she must master, rather than pitting my limited parental energy *against* her passions.

If you're already in a pattern of skirmishing, it will be hard to change from opponent to coach. You might, if you are an avid reader, find Harriet Lehrner's book "The Dance of Anger" useful in changing the pattern of this relationship. But in the end, logical consequences and reasoning *do* work. Because you *are* a good parent, and you *do* have many good things you want to give your daughter as soon as she stops fighting *against* you. So tell her that! And when she fails to master herself, point out to her how it got in the way of whatever you wanted to give her at that time -- and I mean "good things" like time together, roots and values, much more than physical things. And, you *do* have good reasons for all the "must's" and "can'ts" -- so tell her what the reason is. Explain the reason without talking down to her, just as you would to another parent. That, too, is how you show her that your love pervades all your discipline -- because the musts and can'ts really are for her own well-being.

And when it gets really temptestuous, you can be the firm rock that her frustrations break against, and the strong arms that comfort her. Because there is really *nothing* a seven-year-old girl can do to "make" you change your mind, if you don't choose to. So, why fight?

Good luck, though. It isn't easy, this calling to parenthood.

How do you stop bickering and mean comments from children?

I really struggle for the humility to acknowledge that I cannot control any other person's choices, even my own child's. For me, that humility is the key to non-punitive discipline. For fairness and self-discipline, I use a modified "1-2-3 Magic" technique.

*My* darling nine-year-old stole a lightbulb off the string of lights on a tree outside a restaurant next to her school. Thank God, she was so convicted with guilt that when one of her mates was caught in the lightbulb-stealing act, and her mate's parent went to talk to the proprieter, Anne begged to go with her to apologize and offer to pay for the lightbulb. (That was yesterday! Anne was sobbing with relief and shame when I picked her up, but fortunately the restaurant proprieter is a sweet-heart -- he's a parent,too -- and he's part of the "village" that cares for our children. He was *absolutely* right to scold the children and report them to their teacher, and he forgave her as soon as she apologized. Thank God for him, too!)

I've shed more than a few tears over attitude, too, the last couple weeks. My six-year-old has been disobedient, unkind, arrogant and rude. She's a strong-willed, high-energy, smart little mite. I can't force her to listen to me -- even when I'm warning her about serious natural consequences to her attitude. Now, don't get me wrong: if she's running out onto the train tracks I'm going to bodily tackle her and sit on her. But if she's alienating all her little friends with her unkind taunts -- what can I really do?

I actually walked out on her last Saturday morning (DH was home, so she was safe) -- took myself down the hill to Augsburg Fortress bookstore for a time-out. After some peace of mind, lots of quiet browsing, and some thought, I went home and told her how much I loved her. I told her that I wanted to give her good advice to protect her from the consequences of her mistakes. I told her that I couldn't help her if she wouldn't listen, and how sad I was to think of the consequences she might suffer as a result. I told her I would continue to offer her my advice, but I couldn't make her listen if she chose not to.

Next time she yelled at me, I just walked out on her. And the time after that. The third time, she actually begged me -- yelled begging, but still begging -- to stay and finish what I was saying.

Anyway, that's the perspective that my WWYD answers come from. You know now, that they aren't working perfectly for me.

Foul language: First instance, I'd tell her what she said was rude. Second time within half an hour, I'd tell her that I don't want to be around such language or have my other children around it. Third time within half an hour, I'd gather up the other children, go to a different room without her, start a game with the other children, and let her be as foul-mouthed as she wanted in isolation.

Meanness: First, I'd point out that their behaviour is unloving. Second, I'd tell them that I'd rather they spent time separately than fight, and offer them a range of alternatives, from going to read in separate rooms or playing outside, to helping me wash the dishes or make dinner (and in the unlikely event that the TV was on, I'd turn it off on the stated assumption that TV-drunk children are waspish). Third, I'd send them -- with chores or toys or other distractions -- to different rooms or different ends of the garden.

Physical fighting: skip steps one and two above, and separate them. This is my "one strike and you're out" issue.

Non-compliance: Do it myself. Express my disappointment. Make changes to reduce the *problem* of non-compliance.

An example of "reducing the problem of non-compliance" is, for example, when I asked the girls to pick up the books and toys from the nursery floor. After, I went into the nursery, picked up all the toys and books that were left on the floor, and put them in the "Og" box. (Og's are imaginary small green men from Pierre Berton's "The secret world of Og, who steal toys that Berton's children leave lying around the garden"). I let the girls retrieve one item a day from the box. Or, when the children wouldn't help unload the dishwasher, I did it myself and recovered the time by not bothering to make dessert. When the girls asked for their dessert that night, I pointed out what choice I had made, and why.

What do you think? Honestly, my Rachel is a daily challenge (and a darling challenge <g>), and if there's anything I'm doing obviously wrong, I'll appreciate the feedback!



What about “willful Disobedience?

I'm not a big believer in "willful disobedience" in children...(long)

In adults, who owe their obedience to God, certainly I have observed disobedience, and the bible witnesses to the frequency of disobedience in grown people. But from what I've seen, we often train our children to disobedience by having that expectation of them: by turning their nurture -- isn't that a kind a beautiful word -- into a fight. There are many parenting experts whose advice is aimed at strengthening you to win that fight, to be the victor over your child in the struggle for control. I suppose there's good in that: if you engage in such a struggle you had better not be the *loser*. But you will do far better to choose not to have the struggle in the first place.

You see, it is *your* choice. You are in control already over your choices; and God is in control over the world. Your child doesn't have a chance to wrest control from two such powers. Nor does he, really, want to. You and God are the most important people in his life. The constancy of your power is the source of his confidence. But at the same time, he knows that he must gradually take control over his own choices in order to grow to manhood. Learning to master *himself* is enough of a battle for a strong-willed child. You need to appear to him as his mentor in the battle for control, not as his opponent.

I know that this is different from the usual "Christian Parenting Advice". A mentor is a kind of friend, though not a "peer" or an "chum". And it has become almost gospel to advise parents that "your child needs a parent more than a friend". That advice is as common in secular circles as in Christian circles -- and that fact itself should call us to question it. Remember, Christ's way is foolishness in the eyes of the world. As Francis Schaeffer (theologian, and author of "The God who is There" among other apologetic works) put it, to be a witness to the world the church must constantly lean against the wind'.

Take for your model the relationship between Eli and Samuel: Eli knew that he was to die and his house come to an end; that Samuel would have a relationship with God that would cast his utterly into shadow. But he guided Samuel apparently with gentleness. Or take the relationship between Paul and Timothy: Paul had no legal authority or control over Timothy, but he used the warmth of their friendship as the foundation for his instruction of the younger witness.

"Behaviourism" is the psychological theory that you can "condition" a creature to behave in a certain way through reward and punishment. It had high acceptance in secular circles fifty years ago. Further study revealed that its application is limited to low-order responses like salivating when a bell is rung. It has pretty much been discredited, except by parenting experts who recommend rewards and punishments as artificial "consequences" to your child's behaviour. Alfie Kohn's excellent book, "Punished by Rewards", explains why this doesn't work in the long run.

As parents, we feel panicked and out of control when we can't "make" our children do something we want them to. Of course, no person can "make" another person do anything. But we often see that our child's actions have consequences that we want to prevent: often, out of love, for his own sake; sometimes, out of real practical need, for our own sakes. We need the courage to take responsibility for our *own* choices ONLY, and make our choices in the light of the knowledge that we CANNOT *force* our child's choices, we can only control them.

Five-year-olds can understand a lot. You can explain to him the influence his choices have. For example, with respect to the carseat. Take your cross-stitch, cheque-book to balance, new novel, or whatever. Interrupt your child's game a half-hour early, and say "Come out to the car now." Get into the car, smile at your son, and say "we'll go when you get into the back." Then open your book and read (or whatever). DON'T buy in to the struggle. If he argues, smile (appreciate his strength of will -- that is what will make him a great man instead of just a good one!) and say "we'll go when you get into the back. " Make sure you *really* enjoy that book, so that you're not getting irritated. If it continues, tell him "It's a good thing we started so early, so that we have time for you to make this choice. I didn't like having to interrupt your game so early, but I have to be prepared for you take a long time to get into the back. If you learn to obey promptly <smile -- what a nice thought that is -- and it can happen, believe me, I have Rachel so I know!> you'll have more time to play." If he keeps it up past an allotted time, tell him "we don't have time to go to the store now. We'll have to have bread-and-milk for supper today, instead of spaghetti and meatballs (or whatever is something he likes). I'm sorry that you chose not to obey <and be *sorry* -- not angry -- like a coach whose star athlete still can't land that triple salchow and needs more practice> but we'll try again tomorrow."

For chores, try working together with him. Five-year-olds like companionship -- and your companionship in particular. Let him help you on your chores: explain to him how much the family depends on the work you do. Model enjoying your chores (at least the things about them that you *do* enjoy <g> -- find something! -- I really like how the clean folded sheets look when I smooth out the wrinkles and I try not to mention how much I dislike their wet soggy flapping against me as I hang them on the line <g>!

Make sure the consequences you impose are things *you* can happily live with, that actually address the consequences, and draw the connection clearly: "No, I'm so sorry Nathan, but I can't take you to the park today; because I've got to put away the silverware by myself. Perhaps tomorrow you will help me, and the work will be done more quickly; then we will have time to play."

It's hard to disappoint our children with these kind of consequences: it makes us as mothers feel selfish and inadequate. One way I stiffen my resolve, is to use a modified "1-2-3 Magic" -- but not with a time-out as punishment for every offense that's so rigid and totally unrelated to the problem!

The first time a problem occurs, I redefine the standard of performance. It wouldn't be kind to let a child face a consequence without knowing what he could have done to avoid it -- and it's phrased positively, stating what you *do* expect, rather than commenting on the bad behaviour, so that the picture he forms in his mind is of himself complying: "That's Once: Nathan, I expect you to pick up all the dirty laundry and put it in the hamper". If my child argues, or if she just doesn't comply, I clarify the consequence (sometimes I have to think fast, to figure out what the *natural* consequence is!): "Nathan, you must help pick up the laundry, or we won't have time to make dessert together as I intended." The child has now been completely informed as to the standard of performance, and the consequences he faces. If he still makes a bad choice, it's his choice. "I'm sorry, Nathan <beginning to pick up laundry yourself>. We won't be able to have dessert today. Perhaps <encouragingly -- *not angrily*> you will make better choices tomorrow."

Obviously, with hurting Levi, you can't give him three strikes. The moment you know something has gone wrong, you explain your disappointment: "Oh, Nathan, I was trusting you to treat Levi well! I had better supervise the two of you more closely. Let's go over to the baby swings where Levi can play safely" -- or, "come play quietly in the kitchen where I can watch you". Just knowing that he's lost your trust, when you are the most important person in his life and growing up is the most important job in his life, is a serious consequence. Also, enlist Nathan as your junior partner in caring for Levi. When you put safety measures in place for Levi, or capture teachable moments for him, explain to Nathan what you're doing. If he feels grown-up and responsible, he will try to *be* grown-up and resonsible.

Good luck. You have so little time with your children. Waste as little of it as possible on struggles that you can avoid!

Regards, Pamela